I have been very concerned about our club, which discourages cross country
in club gliders. My thought is that purpose of soaring is cross country and
if one just concentrates on flying above the airport then ones member ship
tends to end when you have your license.

We have many airports withing a 15 miles radius and many flat fields with
always an option of landing in cut hay fields, harvested bean and corn
fields etc. There is no lack of good landing fields or airports.

Our board is composed of pilots who do not go cross country and surprisingly
none of the instructors have flown cross country ( there may be an
exception.... but none I know of have gone recently). And I am not allowed
to teach since I insist on wearing a parachute for both student and
instructor. ( I have in the past provided a chute for the student).

The thought at our club is that if you want to go cross country you buy
your own ship... a rasther harsh reality for many pilots.

I have found surprisingly ( tonque in cheek here) that if there is lift at
the airport we fly from there is usually lift 10 to 50 miles away but I have
no way of convincing our board members.

Can anyone give me some ideas.... and do other clubs let their ships for
short cross country runs?

-mat
--
Marske Flying Wings
http://www.continuo.com/marske

mat Redsell wrote:

> Can anyone give me some ideas.... and do other clubs let their ships for
> short cross country runs?

I don't think this will convince anybody, but in Europe, everybody takes
the club ships cross country. In many countries, you even need some
cross country experience to get your license. No way somebody could
become an instructor without thorough cross country experience.

In our club, the only pilots that stay near the airfield are the acro
pilots.

Stefan

Matt,

Our club (North Carolina Soaring Association, USA)
encourages club members to fly cross country. After
a member gets settled into flying the club's L-33 Solo
or HpH 304C, they start to venture out from home base.
They may fly with more experienced cross country pilots
or they may make the flight of more than one thermal
away from home on their own.

Our club has a Master Cross Country Instructor and
he has given classes in the art of venturing out on
Cross Country. Members have also taken advantage of
the cross country and competition fun-fly's offered
by the Blue Ridge Soaring Society in Virginia, USA.
They've taken the club's L-33 up there for these courses
and last year, one of our members won a day flying
the L-33. (The Blue Ridge Soaring Society is located
about a four to five hour drive away from the NCSA
field.)

A member who starts going cross country is encouraged
to have a trailer hitch installed on his car or make
arrangements for someone with a tow hitch to retrieve
him, if the need arrises.

But for the past three weekends or more, either passing
hurricanes or the broken towplane (due to normal wear
and tear and not the weather) have kept everyone grounded
:-(

Ray Lovinggood
Carrboro, North Carolina, USA
LS-1d

Hi Mat,
interesting problem you have there. One point first,
parachutes DEFINITELY !!

My club here in the UK does not have much of a reputation for cross country.
This is a bit historic as the club has only been going 5 years or so and
only have K7's to play with and very little money to update the kit. We are
blessed though with a 20 mile ridge very close to the site, so long flights
are easily achieved with that.

Earlier this year I took the BGA's Cross Country Endorsement tests. Some of
this entails flying a motor glider on a 100 km triangle whilst map reading.
Having not gone XC I found it rather difficult to use the map this first
time, even though an ordnance survey map is like reading to me! To achieve
instructor level I have to complete this level and then the Silver, so no
one in the UK now gets to be an instructor without some XC experience.

One important down side on not going XC is that people generally get a bit
bored with "local" flights. This follows on over time and everyone gets
bored, then they go somewhere else or even out of the sport.

The costs and time factor are of course important for any club, but the
motivation to less experienced pilots of this sort of flying must be a major
benefit.

It would seem you have a difficult task moving the dinosaurs out of the
mud!!

Best of luck, Malcolm...

PS. On parachutes; Last year we got a K8 at the club, which I flew for the
first time one lovely day. It came with a wonderful seat which was better
than my arm chair at home, but no room for a parachute. My flight went to
cloud base at 6200' and after 45 mins I came down to give others a chance.
That evening I returned to find the "Soaring & Gliding" magazine had
arrived. I read first (as always) the accidents. There was a case of a K8
flying into an area for parachutists, and being hit in one wing. The pilot
died only because he didn't have a chute. I have never flown that or
another glider since without a parachute (save definitely winch/circuit
days)



"mat Redsell" > wrote in message
news:0LE6d.36$lf2.15@trnddc09...
> I have been very concerned about our club, which discourages cross country
> in club gliders. My thought is that purpose of soaring is cross country
and
> if one just concentrates on flying above the airport then ones member ship
> tends to end when you have your license.
>
> We have many airports withing a 15 miles radius and many flat fields with
> always an option of landing in cut hay fields, harvested bean and corn
> fields etc. There is no lack of good landing fields or airports.
>
> Our board is composed of pilots who do not go cross country and
surprisingly
> none of the instructors have flown cross country ( there may be an
> exception.... but none I know of have gone recently). And I am not allowed
> to teach since I insist on wearing a parachute for both student and
> instructor. ( I have in the past provided a chute for the student).
>
> The thought at our club is that if you want to go cross country you buy
> your own ship... a rasther harsh reality for many pilots.
>
> I have found surprisingly ( tonque in cheek here) that if there is lift at
> the airport we fly from there is usually lift 10 to 50 miles away but I
have
> no way of convincing our board members.
>
> Can anyone give me some ideas.... and do other clubs let their ships for
> short cross country runs?
>
> -mat
> --
> Marske Flying Wings
> http://www.continuo.com/marske
>
>

It is sad, but easy to understand. 'If a dog is owned
in partnership, the dog will starve.' -- An old saying
that illustrates that every one wants someone else
to take responsibility. Club might not be insured.
The trailers might not be maintained. The license
plates for the trailers might not be up to date. The
members don't want the glider gone that long because
someone else wants a flight., etc.

We solved the problem, partially, by buying a PW-5
and encouraging its use for X/C with the normal time
limit of 1 hour excused for badge flights and X/C flights.
Another way is for 2-4 people to buy an old, cheap
glider together. It is not ideal, but at least you
can do the Silver and pursue Gold flights on occasion.
It is better to have a low performer and fly lots
than to have a super machine and be limited in the
amount of flying you can do.


Having instructors who do X/C is a must or it will
never really happen.

At 20:42 29 September 2004, Mat Redsell wrote:
>I have been very concerned about our club, which discourages
>cross country
>in club gliders. My thought is that purpose of soaring
>is cross country and
>if one just concentrates on flying above the airport
>then ones member ship
>tends to end when you have your license.
>
>We have many airports withing a 15 miles radius and
>many flat fields with
>always an option of landing in cut hay fields, harvested
>bean and corn
>fields etc. There is no lack of good landing fields
>or airports.
>
>Our board is composed of pilots who do not go cross
>country and surprisingly
>none of the instructors have flown cross country (
>there may be an
>exception.... but none I know of have gone recently).
>And I am not allowed
>to teach since I insist on wearing a parachute for
>both student and
>instructor. ( I have in the past provided a chute for
>the student).
>
>The thought at our club is that if you want to go
>cross country you buy
>your own ship... a rasther harsh reality for many pilots.
>
>I have found surprisingly ( tonque in cheek here) that
>if there is lift at
>the airport we fly from there is usually lift 10 to
>50 miles away but I have
>no way of convincing our board members.
>
>Can anyone give me some ideas.... and do other clubs
>let their ships for
>short cross country runs?
>
>-mat
>--
>Marske Flying Wings
>http://www.continuo.com/marske
>
>
>

Mat.. we encourage cross country flying.. especially soon after a student
gets his rating.
We have a SGS 1-26 and an LS-4 for cross country, and a Grob 103 to teach
cross country. Our primary trainer is a 2-33.

The closest airport is 14nm away and on the other side of a 8000ft high
ridge line (ridge is about 5000ft above airport elevation) but we do have a
couple of dry lake beds in season about 5nm away.

First cross countries are encouraged to be Silver Distance in the clubs
1-26.

BT

"mat Redsell" > wrote in message
news:0LE6d.36$lf2.15@trnddc09...
> I have been very concerned about our club, which discourages cross country
> in club gliders. My thought is that purpose of soaring is cross country
and
> if one just concentrates on flying above the airport then ones member ship
> tends to end when you have your license.
>
> We have many airports withing a 15 miles radius and many flat fields with
> always an option of landing in cut hay fields, harvested bean and corn
> fields etc. There is no lack of good landing fields or airports.
>
> Our board is composed of pilots who do not go cross country and
surprisingly
> none of the instructors have flown cross country ( there may be an
> exception.... but none I know of have gone recently). And I am not allowed
> to teach since I insist on wearing a parachute for both student and
> instructor. ( I have in the past provided a chute for the student).
>
> The thought at our club is that if you want to go cross country you buy
> your own ship... a rasther harsh reality for many pilots.
>
> I have found surprisingly ( tonque in cheek here) that if there is lift at
> the airport we fly from there is usually lift 10 to 50 miles away but I
have
> no way of convincing our board members.
>
> Can anyone give me some ideas.... and do other clubs let their ships for
> short cross country runs?
>
> -mat
> --
> Marske Flying Wings
> http://www.continuo.com/marske
>
>

>Can anyone give me some ideas.... and do other clubs let their ships for
>short cross country runs?
>
>-mat

Avenal encourages X-C, but then again it's nothing but flat
fields in all directions for the most part, and our gliders are
very cheap (all under $10k) so there is little financial risk.

Another club, BASA, has quite pricey gliders and lots of X-C,
but requires a minimum Private Glider license to fly the Pegasi or
1-34 or DG-1000 or Grob 103. And requires one maintain a 2/3
glide ratio to a known landable field for all flights.

If X-C isn't alowed in your club's ships, then maybe a
private sub-club with its own glider is in order.
If there's enough folks interested, then the demand is there, right?
--

------------+
Mark J. Boyd

Stefan wrote:
> mat Redsell wrote:
>
>> Can anyone give me some ideas.... and do other clubs let their ships
>> for short cross country runs?
>
>
> I don't think this will convince anybody, but in Europe, everybody takes
> the club ships cross country. In many countries, you even need some
> cross country experience to get your license. No way somebody could
> become an instructor without thorough cross country experience.
>
> In our club, the only pilots that stay near the airfield are the acro
> pilots.
>
> Stefan
>
It is a requirement in South Africa - no silver C (at least one 50km XC) - no
instructor brevet. Very simple.

$0.02 from the Soaring Club of Houston--
We are in the flat coastal plains and the club doesn't have a history of
promoting XC--our instructor staff and club management attitude are much the
same as you describe.

What might be interesting to you is how we are CHANGING.

A sub-group within the club, led by an instructor w/XC experience and a lot
of energy, has been holding training classes and putting the trailers in
shape. Bronze Badge is the club requirement for XC flight and we're holding
Bronze Badge days to help members clear that hurdle. The training classes
have covered topics like Thermalling and XC decision making. They've taken
field trips driving around identifying the best land-out fields.

In general, club ships are reserved for 1:30 slots. Certificated Airmen
with Bronze Badge can reserve ships for up to a full day for XC flights and
badge work. They must also secure a retrieve crew in advance.
Club fleet is:
2 Blanik L-23's
1 Grob
1 Blanik L-33
1 Schwiezer 2-33
1 Lark (on lease-back to club)

Brent



"mat Redsell" > wrote in message
news:0LE6d.36$lf2.15@trnddc09...
> I have been very concerned about our club, which discourages cross country
> in club gliders. My thought is that purpose of soaring is cross country
and
> if one just concentrates on flying above the airport then ones member ship
> tends to end when you have your license.
>
> We have many airports withing a 15 miles radius and many flat fields with
> always an option of landing in cut hay fields, harvested bean and corn
> fields etc. There is no lack of good landing fields or airports.
>
> Our board is composed of pilots who do not go cross country and
surprisingly
> none of the instructors have flown cross country ( there may be an
> exception.... but none I know of have gone recently). And I am not allowed
> to teach since I insist on wearing a parachute for both student and
> instructor. ( I have in the past provided a chute for the student).
>
> The thought at our club is that if you want to go cross country you buy
> your own ship... a rasther harsh reality for many pilots.
>
> I have found surprisingly ( tonque in cheek here) that if there is lift at
> the airport we fly from there is usually lift 10 to 50 miles away but I
have
> no way of convincing our board members.
>
> Can anyone give me some ideas.... and do other clubs let their ships for
> short cross country runs?
>
> -mat
> --
> Marske Flying Wings
> http://www.continuo.com/marske
>
>

Basically you can tell to your clu leader board that anyone in r.a.s thinks
that they are plain idiots and shall step down from club management. Banning
XC does not prevent accidents and glider loss, but it can kill local soaring
activity rather fast.

Regards,
Kaido



"mat Redsell" > wrote in message
news:0LE6d.36$lf2.15@trnddc09...
> I have been very concerned about our club, which discourages cross country
> in club gliders. My thought is that purpose of soaring is cross country
and
> if one just concentrates on flying above the airport then ones member ship
> tends to end when you have your license.
>
> We have many airports withing a 15 miles radius and many flat fields with
> always an option of landing in cut hay fields, harvested bean and corn
> fields etc. There is no lack of good landing fields or airports.
>
> Our board is composed of pilots who do not go cross country and
surprisingly
> none of the instructors have flown cross country ( there may be an
> exception.... but none I know of have gone recently). And I am not allowed
> to teach since I insist on wearing a parachute for both student and
> instructor. ( I have in the past provided a chute for the student).
>
> The thought at our club is that if you want to go cross country you buy
> your own ship... a rasther harsh reality for many pilots.
>
> I have found surprisingly ( tonque in cheek here) that if there is lift at
> the airport we fly from there is usually lift 10 to 50 miles away but I
have
> no way of convincing our board members.
>
> Can anyone give me some ideas.... and do other clubs let their ships for
> short cross country runs?
>
> -mat
> --
> Marske Flying Wings
> http://www.continuo.com/marske
>
>

Ah, Politics! It takes patience and lobbying to make a change. First you
need to form a supportive base that will aid in promoting your view of what
the club should be - with reasoned arguments. Try to get like minded
members into officer positions. Most clubs, I believe are run in a fairly
democratic manner, so you need votes. Know your clubs by-laws and rules of
conduct regarding voting and decision making. It can get personal so be
prepared. It is a shame the club does not promote the SSA badge program for
non owners.

Mike

"mat Redsell" > wrote in message
news:0LE6d.36$lf2.15@trnddc09...
> I have been very concerned about our club, which discourages cross country
> in club gliders. My thought is that purpose of soaring is cross country
and
> if one just concentrates on flying above the airport then ones member ship
> tends to end when you have your license.
>
> We have many airports withing a 15 miles radius and many flat fields with
> always an option of landing in cut hay fields, harvested bean and corn
> fields etc. There is no lack of good landing fields or airports.
>
> Our board is composed of pilots who do not go cross country and
surprisingly
> none of the instructors have flown cross country ( there may be an
> exception.... but none I know of have gone recently). And I am not allowed
> to teach since I insist on wearing a parachute for both student and
> instructor. ( I have in the past provided a chute for the student).
>
> The thought at our club is that if you want to go cross country you buy
> your own ship... a rasther harsh reality for many pilots.
>
> I have found surprisingly ( tonque in cheek here) that if there is lift at
> the airport we fly from there is usually lift 10 to 50 miles away but I
have
> no way of convincing our board members.
>
> Can anyone give me some ideas.... and do other clubs let their ships for
> short cross country runs?
>
> -mat
> --
> Marske Flying Wings
> http://www.continuo.com/marske
>
>

Some time ago X-C requirements for instructors in France were even more
stringent : 1000 km XC including at least 1 300-km flight.

Asbjorn Hojmark a écrit:
> On Thu, 30 Sep 2004 08:01:57 +0200, Bruce Greeff
> > wrote:
>
>
>>It is a requirement in South Africa - no silver C (at least one
>>50km XC) - no instructor brevet. Very simple.
>
>
> It's the same in Denmark: At least one Silver C distance for HI
> (sort of a 'helping hand' instructur, who can't sign anything
> important) and at least two flights over 100 km for the FI.
>
> -A

In France there is a specific qualification for XC instructor, in addition
to basic instructor qualification. Pre-requisite is in-flight skills
assessment + theoretical exam + 1000 XC experience in last 12 months + 2
week course.

For XC pilots an XC qualification delivered by an XC instructor is required,
with mandatory 8-hours, 3 flights, 1 outlanding etc.

However XC is strongly promoted by the federation via a yearly pilots/club
country-wide ranking based on your 5 longest flights. This helps because
number of clubs are frightened by XC activity ...

Jean

"Marc Till" ]> a écrit dans le
message de ...
> Some time ago X-C requirements for instructors in France were even more
> stringent : 1000 km XC including at least 1 300-km flight.
>

"For Example John Smith" > wrote
> We are in the flat coastal plains and the club doesn't have a history of
> promoting XC--our instructor staff and club management attitude are much the
> same as you describe.
>
> What might be interesting to you is how we are CHANGING.

And at what speed.

When I joined that club, nobody had gone XC in a club ship in years -
but things were changing. Club ships were going to go XC that season.
There was a program being put in place. I even remember attending
one of the meetings.

Eventually I got tired of waiting for the club to change. I bought my
own ship (an inexpensive metal one) and started teaching myself XC
flying. I flew some XC, got my commercial glider, eventually got my
CFIG, did some teaching, and even trained a CFIG myself. But I also
bought a twin, got heavily involved in instrument flying, got my CFII,
got heavily involved in instrument instruction, and sort of drifted
out of soaring.

As you might imagine, this is a process that took years.

The club is still changing. Club ships will go XC next season.

Michael

I am amazed that some clubs dont actively encourage XC! In our club virtually
everybody flies XC as soon as they are qualified to do so. OK some people
only do their 50km and never venture out of gliding range ever again.
The single seater club aircraft fly cross country on every possible occasion
and this year we have had 4 entered in regional competitions, 3 in national
competitions and one competing in the European Championships.
Note I said that these are club aircraft not private.
We do get occasional damage from field landings (stone chips etc) but this is
small price to pay.
Everyone who is flying XC on a particular day either arranges their own
retrieves or puts their name on the board for a mutual retrieve.
Nigel

I can only speak for the USA but here there is a minority with the idea that
gliding exists solely to support tow planes. The rag and tube taildragger
tug drivers want glider pilots to support their hobby by falling out of the
sky ASAP so they can fly another tow and log another takeoff and landing.
This idea goes hand in hand with the preference for Schweizer 2-33 trainers.

XC takes a glider away for the day with only one tow - no fun in that for
the tug drivers. Really good XC pilots release at less than 1500 feet AGL
which is even worse. No XC means more tows.

Bill Daniels

"OscarCVox" > wrote in message
...
> I am amazed that some clubs dont actively encourage XC! In our club
virtually
> everybody flies XC as soon as they are qualified to do so. OK some
people
> only do their 50km and never venture out of gliding range ever again.
> The single seater club aircraft fly cross country on every possible
occasion
> and this year we have had 4 entered in regional competitions, 3 in
national
> competitions and one competing in the European Championships.
> Note I said that these are club aircraft not private.
> We do get occasional damage from field landings (stone chips etc) but this
is
> small price to pay.
> Everyone who is flying XC on a particular day either arranges their own
> retrieves or puts their name on the board for a mutual retrieve.
> Nigel

It's a real pleasure to have a good tuggie up front, usually a glider pilot
with some hours to his name. He'll know right away just how good you are and
will crank the tug around into a thermal if a good one presents itself.

This season I had 3 aerotows tows where I released at or just below 1000'
AGL, one of which was at no more than about 500' AGL. During a right hand
turnout from the initial liftoff in Spain we flew into a real stonker. The
tug climbed high as it flew into the core and I simply could not catch him.
I held on just long enough for the vario to confirm that it was 'off the
clock' pulled the plug and left the tug to complete a right hand circuit and
land. I got charged a cable break price for that one, it probably lasted
only about 1min 30 secs start to off tow.

Ian

"Bill Daniels" > wrote in message
news:1Bg7d.150967$MQ5.46505@attbi_s52...
>I can only speak for the USA but here there is a minority with the idea
>that
> gliding exists solely to support tow planes. The rag and tube taildragger
> tug drivers want glider pilots to support their hobby by falling out of
> the
> sky ASAP so they can fly another tow and log another takeoff and landing.
> This idea goes hand in hand with the preference for Schweizer 2-33
> trainers.
>
> XC takes a glider away for the day with only one tow - no fun in that for
> the tug drivers. Really good XC pilots release at less than 1500 feet AGL
> which is even worse. No XC means more tows.
>
> Bill Daniels
>
> "OscarCVox" > wrote in message
> ...
>> I am amazed that some clubs dont actively encourage XC! In our club
> virtually
>> everybody flies XC as soon as they are qualified to do so. OK some
> people
>> only do their 50km and never venture out of gliding range ever again.
>> The single seater club aircraft fly cross country on every possible
> occasion
>> and this year we have had 4 entered in regional competitions, 3 in
> national
>> competitions and one competing in the European Championships.
>> Note I said that these are club aircraft not private.
>> We do get occasional damage from field landings (stone chips etc) but
>> this
> is
>> small price to pay.
>> Everyone who is flying XC on a particular day either arranges their own
>> retrieves or puts their name on the board for a mutual retrieve.
>> Nigel
>

"MK" > wrote in message >...
> Ah, Politics! It takes patience and lobbying to make a change. First you
> need to form a supportive base that will aid in promoting your view of what
> the club should be - with reasoned arguments. Try to get like minded
> members into officer positions. Most clubs, I believe are run in a fairly
> democratic manner, so you need votes. Know your clubs by-laws and rules of
> conduct regarding voting and decision making. It can get personal so be
> prepared. It is a shame the club does not promote the SSA badge program for
> non owners.
>
> Mike
>
> "mat Redsell" > wrote in message
> news:0LE6d.36$lf2.15@trnddc09...
> > I have been very concerned about our club, which discourages cross country
> > in club gliders. My thought is that purpose of soaring is cross country
> and
> > if one just concentrates on flying above the airport then ones member ship
> > tends to end when you have your license.
> >
> > We have many airports withing a 15 miles radius and many flat fields with
> > always an option of landing in cut hay fields, harvested bean and corn
> > fields etc. There is no lack of good landing fields or airports.
> >
> > Our board is composed of pilots who do not go cross country and
> surprisingly
> > none of the instructors have flown cross country ( there may be an
> > exception.... but none I know of have gone recently). And I am not allowed
> > to teach since I insist on wearing a parachute for both student and
> > instructor. ( I have in the past provided a chute for the student).
> >
> > The thought at our club is that if you want to go cross country you buy
> > your own ship... a rasther harsh reality for many pilots.
> >
> > I have found surprisingly ( tonque in cheek here) that if there is lift at
> > the airport we fly from there is usually lift 10 to 50 miles away but I
> have
> > no way of convincing our board members.
> >
> > Can anyone give me some ideas.... and do other clubs let their ships for
> > short cross country runs?
> >
> > -mat
> > --
> > Marske Flying Wings
> > http://www.continuo.com/marske
> >
> >


Parachutes- don't fly without them. They seem to be just an expensive
piece of fabric to sit on, but when you need it....is there for you.
And only for you.
And if someone calls you "sissy", well...I'd rather be a "sissy" then
dead. Plain and simple. In addition, if you fly with parachute on your
back, you are more comfortable in flight. And that opens whole
different perspective for you as a pilot of a sailplane....
Now, if your club board members are not permitting XC, get rid of
them...if you can't, change clubs. Not permitting XC is the most
stupid thing...it teaches the pilot art of navigation, decision
making, much better weather analysis and interpretation, your skills
are becoming sharper, etc. When you fly around your airport don't you
know where the lift is? So, if you going low you fly to known to
everybody spot, you go up and wander around the neighborhood....sounds
familiar? All power to you for trying to change the club (stupid)
rules. Promote XC, it is good for every pilot...and then comes the
contest.

"MK" > wrote in message >...
> Ah, Politics! It takes patience and lobbying to make a change. First you
> need to form a supportive base that will aid in promoting your view of what
> the club should be - with reasoned arguments. Try to get like minded
> members into officer positions. Most clubs, I believe are run in a fairly
> democratic manner, so you need votes. Know your clubs by-laws and rules of
> conduct regarding voting and decision making. It can get personal so be
> prepared. It is a shame the club does not promote the SSA badge program for
> non owners.
>
> Mike
>
> "mat Redsell" > wrote in message
> news:0LE6d.36$lf2.15@trnddc09...
> > I have been very concerned about our club, which discourages cross country
> > in club gliders. My thought is that purpose of soaring is cross country
> and
> > if one just concentrates on flying above the airport then ones member ship
> > tends to end when you have your license.
> >
> > We have many airports withing a 15 miles radius and many flat fields with
> > always an option of landing in cut hay fields, harvested bean and corn
> > fields etc. There is no lack of good landing fields or airports.
> >
> > Our board is composed of pilots who do not go cross country and
> surprisingly
> > none of the instructors have flown cross country ( there may be an
> > exception.... but none I know of have gone recently). And I am not allowed
> > to teach since I insist on wearing a parachute for both student and
> > instructor. ( I have in the past provided a chute for the student).
> >
> > The thought at our club is that if you want to go cross country you buy
> > your own ship... a rasther harsh reality for many pilots.
> >
> > I have found surprisingly ( tonque in cheek here) that if there is lift at
> > the airport we fly from there is usually lift 10 to 50 miles away but I
> have
> > no way of convincing our board members.
> >
> > Can anyone give me some ideas.... and do other clubs let their ships for
> > short cross country runs?
> >
> > -mat
> > --
> > Marske Flying Wings
> > http://www.continuo.com/marske
> >
> >


Parachutes- don't fly without them. They seem to be just an expensive
piece of fabric to sit on, but when you need it....is there for you.
And only for you.
And if someone calls you "sissy", well...I'd rather be a "sissy" then
dead. Plain and simple. In addition, if you fly with parachute on your
back, you are more comfortable in flight. And that opens whole
different perspective for you as a pilot of a sailplane....
Now, if your club board members are not permitting XC, get rid of
them...if you can't, change clubs. Not permitting XC is the most
stupid thing...it teaches the pilot art of navigation, decision
making, much better weather analysis and interpretation, your skills
are becoming sharper, etc. When you fly around your airport don't you
know where the lift is? So, if you going low you fly to known to
everybody spot, you go up and wander around the neighborhood....sounds
familiar? All power to you for trying to change the club (stupid)
rules. Promote XC, it is good for every pilot...and then comes the
contest.

Bill Daniels wrote:

> ...here [in the USA] there is a minority with the idea that
> gliding exists solely to support tow planes.

[....]


> Really good XC pilots release at less than 1500 feet AGL
> which is even worse. No XC means more tows.

Au Contraire, Buttercup. There is nothing more boring than dragging some
poor schmuck to 3500' agl so he can stay up for an extra 5 minutes.

In reality, we tow pilots can hardly wait to get back down for the next
pattern-tow so we can maximize our exposure to the more dangerous phase
of the sport. It's the self-sacrficial aspect that draws us to those
beloved "rag and tube" tugs. And if someone builds a better tug, you'll
probably complain that the tows have become too expensive.

Your nemeses are no doubt substantially in the minority, and not very
good at accounting, either.


Jack

"Jack" > wrote in message
...

> Your nemeses are no doubt substantially in the minority, and not very
> good at accounting, either.
>
>
> Jack

Yup, that's about my take on it too.

Bill Daniels

Mark James Boyd > wrote:
> 1-34 or DG-1000 or Grob 103. And requires one maintain a 2/3
> glide ratio to a known landable field for all flights.

A 2/3 glide ratio??

-Gerhard
--
Gerhard Wesp o o Tel.: +41 (0) 43 5347636
Bachtobelstrasse 56 | http://www.cosy.sbg.ac.at/~gwesp/
CH-8045 Zuerich \_/ See homepage for email address!

If your ship has 30:1, you keep within 20:1 to a landable field.

--
Bert Willing

ASW20 "TW"


"Gerhard Wesp" > a écrit dans le message de news:
...
> Mark James Boyd > wrote:
>> 1-34 or DG-1000 or Grob 103. And requires one maintain a 2/3
>> glide ratio to a known landable field for all flights.
>
> A 2/3 glide ratio??
>
> -Gerhard
> --
> Gerhard Wesp o o Tel.: +41 (0) 43 5347636
> Bachtobelstrasse 56 | http://www.cosy.sbg.ac.at/~gwesp/
> CH-8045 Zuerich \_/ See homepage for email address!

>Au Contraire, Buttercup. There is nothing more boring than dragging some
>poor schmuck to 3500' agl so he can stay up for an extra 5 minutes.
>
>Jack

Well, the comercial op at Tehachapi doesn't allow X-C in their
ships either. Here's a hint why: BASA, the club in the
SF Bay Area with Pegasi and 103s and DG-100, eventually could
not obtain hull insurance after too many claims. Eventually they
overcame this by self-insuring for hull damage.

I can't tell you if restricting X-C is a good idea or not for any
particular organization, but there are reasons on both sides.

I must say, however, that with the price of some 30:1 or better
gliders in the $10k-$15k range (US), making an XC "sub-club" or
syndicate seems to be warranted. Then when the competition eats into
the club's monies, they'll buy the syndicate glider from you
and all will be well ;)

I'm reasonably sure X-C is the main focus of Soaring, and
NOT X-C is the main focus of gliding. I've yet to hear of
someone who did 5 hours for the Silver duration right over the airport.
That would be REALLY boring ;)
--

------------+
Mark J. Boyd

I did my 5 hours within gliding distance of the field. Certainly no more
than 10 to 15 km from it. Boring? Hell no, I contacted wave and made my gold
height in the same flight and I had less than 20 hours solo at the time.

:-)

Ian


"Mark James Boyd" > wrote in message
news:4165da99$1@darkstar...
> >Au Contraire, Buttercup. There is nothing more boring than dragging some
>>poor schmuck to 3500' agl so he can stay up for an extra 5 minutes.
>>
>>Jack
>
> Well, the comercial op at Tehachapi doesn't allow X-C in their
> ships either. Here's a hint why: BASA, the club in the
> SF Bay Area with Pegasi and 103s and DG-100, eventually could
> not obtain hull insurance after too many claims. Eventually they
> overcame this by self-insuring for hull damage.
>
> I can't tell you if restricting X-C is a good idea or not for any
> particular organization, but there are reasons on both sides.
>
> I must say, however, that with the price of some 30:1 or better
> gliders in the $10k-$15k range (US), making an XC "sub-club" or
> syndicate seems to be warranted. Then when the competition eats into
> the club's monies, they'll buy the syndicate glider from you
> and all will be well ;)
>
> I'm reasonably sure X-C is the main focus of Soaring, and
> NOT X-C is the main focus of gliding. I've yet to hear of
> someone who did 5 hours for the Silver duration right over the airport.
> That would be REALLY boring ;)
> --
>
> ------------+
> Mark J. Boyd

Mark James Boyd wrote:

> I've yet to hear of
> someone who did 5 hours for the Silver duration right over the airport.
> That would be REALLY boring ;)

Our club asks for the 5 hour duration flight before it would let you go
cross country in a club ship. Boring? Maybe, but then, at that stage of
your pilot's career, maybe not. And in our club, part of the game.

Stefan

"tango4" > wrote in message >...
> I did my 5 hours within gliding distance of the field. Certainly no more
> than 10 to 15 km from it. Boring? Hell no, I contacted wave and made my gold
> height in the same flight and I had less than 20 hours solo at the time.
>

I did my 300km Diamond Goal flight last weekend. At no point was I out
of gliding range of the airport. 134km final glide from 15 500ft! Does
this count as a X/C flight?

Clinton
LAK 12

Clint wrote:
> "tango4" > wrote in message >...
>
>>I did my 5 hours within gliding distance of the field. Certainly no more
>>than 10 to 15 km from it. Boring? Hell no, I contacted wave and made my gold
>>height in the same flight and I had less than 20 hours solo at the time.
>>
>
>
> I did my 300km Diamond Goal flight last weekend. At no point was I out
> of gliding range of the airport. 134km final glide from 15 500ft! Does
> this count as a X/C flight?

My opinion: If you had to navigate with paper maps, yes; or, if there
was a good chance weather would cut you off from your home field, yes;
otherwise, the informal rule is you need to be at least one thermal away
for it to count as a XC flight. But what a great flight, right?


--
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA

Stefan > wrote:
>Mark James Boyd wrote:
>
>> I've yet to hear of
>> someone who did 5 hours for the Silver duration right over the airport.
>> That would be REALLY boring ;)
>
>Our club asks for the 5 hour duration flight before it would let you go
>cross country in a club ship. Boring? Maybe, but then, at that stage of
>your pilot's career, maybe not. And in our club, part of the game.

In my experience, a Bronze badge is a fairly common requirement
(or informal recommendation) before a student pilot X-C attempt.

The Bronze badge precision landings and written test and
two flights of over two hours are a better prep for X-C than
a sole 5 hour duration flight, in my opinion.

I actually really like the Bronze badge SSA instructor
packet I got. And I was REALLY impressed by the
LOW price :) I'm looking forward to handing out pins and
giving written tests next soaring season...

And as far as the 5 hours, if you can't actually see the airport
because you're so far from it (or below a ridgeline) then
that may count as not "right over the airport." ;PPPPPPP


--

------------+
Mark J. Boyd

At 11:00 08 October 2004, Clint wrote:
>'tango4' wrote in message news:...
>> I did my 5 hours within gliding distance of the field.
>>Certainly no more
>> than 10 to 15 km from it. Boring? Hell no, I contacted
>>wave and made my gold
>> height in the same flight and I had less than 20 hours
>>solo at the time.
>>
>
>I did my 300km Diamond Goal flight last weekend. At
>no point was I out
>of gliding range of the airport. 134km final glide
>from 15 500ft! Does
>this count as a X/C flight?
>
>Clinton
>LAK 12
>

Congratulations!

Your question about X/C flight indicates that you did
not feel the same level of accomplishment as those
who did it in a 1950s glider.

This is not a putdown; I've not yet done a 300K flight
and I have a Discus. My longest flight was in a K-8
- 175mi. and that was a more substantial accomplishment
than a 186. mi. will be in my present glider.

I agree, a lot of badges are easier to acheive these days and it's a little
amusing to hear student pilots worrying about whether they can make 50km in
a Discus. I did my 500 as an out and return, just a little more challenging.
I going to try doing my ( UK ) 750 km as an FAI triangle. Get a map and try
to fit a damned 750 FAI triangle onto the UK bit of it !

But does it matter if its easier these days? I don't think there is any less
personal sense of acheivement. Did anyone who has recently soloed feel any
less elated the day they put their first solo in their logbook marking K-21,
Grob or any of the other plastic ship than the older generation did when
they marked KA7, Bergfalke or 2-33? I think not. Apart from providing a
rough guideline as to the ability of a soaring pilot the badges are just
personal landmarks. Claiming badges is a personal thing.

My 500km took about 8 years to get, a couple of years of little soaring, bad
weather, a new family and countless failed attempts. When I wrote it up in
my logbook it marked a personal acheivement. When a club I'm visiting ask me
about my 'qualifications' I can say I've got 3 diamonds but that doesn't
tell the whole story does it?

Ian

"Nyal Williams" > wrote in message
...
> At 11:00 08 October 2004, Clint wrote:
>>'tango4' wrote in message news:...
>>> I did my 5 hours within gliding distance of the field.
>>>Certainly no more
>>> than 10 to 15 km from it. Boring? Hell no, I contacted
>>>wave and made my gold
>>> height in the same flight and I had less than 20 hours
>>>solo at the time.
>>>
>>
>>I did my 300km Diamond Goal flight last weekend. At
>>no point was I out
>>of gliding range of the airport. 134km final glide
>>from 15 500ft! Does
>>this count as a X/C flight?
>>
>>Clinton
>>LAK 12
>>
>
> Congratulations!
>
> Your question about X/C flight indicates that you did
> not feel the same level of accomplishment as those
> who did it in a 1950s glider.
>
> This is not a putdown; I've not yet done a 300K flight
> and I have a Discus. My longest flight was in a K-8
> - 175mi. and that was a more substantial accomplishment
> than a 186. mi. will be in my present glider.
>
>
>

Mark James Boyd wrote:

> The Bronze badge precision landings and written test and
> two flights of over two hours are a better prep for X-C than
> a sole 5 hour duration flight, in my opinion.

Nowhere I said we'd require *only* 5 hours duration!

If you're interested: We require the 5 hours before the first cross
country. A cross country with an istructor has already been a
requirement for the license. Then, the first cross country has to be
prepared, and the preparation presented to an instructor. Preparation
means preparing the map (drawing circles, indicating outlanding fields),
estimating a schedule, knowing about the actual weather etc. etc.
Organizing a retreive crew is also compulsory. During the flight, you
take a logger with you. After the flight, there will be a debriefing
with the instructor which includes an analysis of the logger track. This
first cross country often is 50km silver distance, but need not be. Of
course, it is flown with our primary solo trainer (happens to be a Junior).

After this, you're allowed to take the Junior where ever you want.

The next step on the ladder is silver badge. As soon as you have gained
the silver badge (which is not trivial, as our airfield lies underneath
a TMA, so you need to go cross country to climb), you are allowed to
take the LS4s cross country.

And the ladder goes on: For the better single seaters, a 300 km flight
is asked for. Double seaters have their own requirements.

Stefan

Stefan wrote:
> ...
> After this, you're allowed to take the Junior where ever you want.
>
> The next step on the ladder is silver badge. As soon as you have gained
> the silver badge (which is not trivial, as our airfield lies underneath
> a TMA, so you need to go cross country to climb), you are allowed to
> take the LS4s cross country.
>
> And the ladder goes on: For the better single seaters, a 300 km flight
> is asked for. Double seaters have their own requirements.
>

While this kind of rules is very common in numerous clibs, including mine,
I think there is a serious drawback. I am not against a hierarchy among club
ships, according to which you are allowed to fly a given ship after gaining
some experience and hours on the previous on the hierachy. The drawback is
in setting rigid rules, like the need for a silver badge or a 300 km distance.
The consequence is that we see ships in the top of the hierarchy remaining
in the hangars, while pilots remain on the ground because they don't already
meet the creteria for the better ships while others are already flown by
other pilots, although their experience and skills would allow them to fly
these better ships without risk or problem.

"Robert Ehrlich" > wrote in message
...
> Stefan wrote:
> > ...
> While this kind of rules is very common in numerous clibs, including mine,
> I think there is a serious drawback. I am not against a hierarchy among
club
> ships, according to which you are allowed to fly a given ship after
gaining
> some experience and hours on the previous on the hierachy. The drawback is
> in setting rigid rules, like the need for a silver badge or a 300 km
distance.
> The consequence is that we see ships in the top of the hierarchy remaining
> in the hangars, while pilots remain on the ground because they don't
already
> meet the creteria for the better ships while others are already flown by
> other pilots, although their experience and skills would allow them to fly
> these better ships without risk or problem.

As opposed as having those "low-level" gliders either in the hangar or just
close to the airport. Which is better? I basically support at least the idea
of ladders , if not extreemly rigid rules. The worst scenario is that the
high-level gliders fly around the airfield and the low-levels in the hangar
and the cross-country pilots have a hay-straw in the mouth as they wait for
their 1:30 hour slot...

Now, real men fly cross-country with K-8b if nothing else is available, but
now the mindset seems to be that only LS-4+ gliders are good enough for
anything. Of course another question is, if the cross-country is for
everyone (and as I see, it isn't) and if those also should be able to fly
the higher level ships. Basically it's about the same to fly a local flight
in Grob 102 as LS-4 or even LS-8 - meaning it is normally not more
difficult. But flying with higher level gliders is sexier and so these good
cross-country gliders are used for anything.

And some of us, really dumb ones, even fly competitions with Astir CS
against Discuses and LS-7+ :/ And yes, occasionally cross-country with K-8b
as well, just because I can ;)

Best regards, hannu

Robert Ehrlich wrote:

> ... The drawback is
> in setting rigid rules, like the need for a silver badge or a 300 km distance.
....

Well, such is club life. There are times with no human problems, and
there are times with huge human problems. Such rules are needed for the
latter. Rigid rules help to avoid conflicts. (You know: Why is he
allowed and I'm not?)

Besides, our rules make some sense. There is no point in flying silver
distance in a 1:50 ship. But by doing it in a Junior you learn
something. As a side effect, if a youngster happens to break a Junior,
we can live with that. An LS 8 would be another story... not only for
the club, but also for the (unexperienced) pilot. Chances are this would
stop him from going further.

> The consequence is that we see ships in the top of the hierarchy
> remaining in the hangars, while pilots remain on the ground because
> they don't already meet the creteria for the better ships while others

I don't remember a single day when this scenario occured. But then, this
is my club, yours may be different.

Stefan

Hei,

hannu wrote:

> [...] The worst scenario is that the high-level gliders fly around the
> airfield and the low-levels in the hangar and the cross-country pilots
> have a hay-straw in the mouth as they wait for their 1:30 hour slot...
>
> Now, real men fly cross-country with K-8b if nothing else is available,[...]

It usually helps to just "threaten" to fly the K-8 cross-country and
kindly request that the one(s) claiming the Discus for local flights
retreive you when you inevitably land out after just 200 of your
intended 300km. Then they'll quite happily let you have the Discus and
rather fly the K-8 locally themselves ;-)

Regards,

Christian 8-)

"Christian Husvik" > wrote in message
...
> Hei,
>
> hannu wrote:
>
> > [...] The worst scenario is that the high-level gliders fly around the
> > airfield and the low-levels in the hangar and the cross-country pilots
> > have a hay-straw in the mouth as they wait for their 1:30 hour slot...
> >
> > Now, real men fly cross-country with K-8b if nothing else is
available,[...]
>
> It usually helps to just "threaten" to fly the K-8 cross-country and
> kindly request that the one(s) claiming the Discus for local flights
> retreive you when you inevitably land out after just 200 of your
> intended 300km. Then they'll quite happily let you have the Discus and
> rather fly the K-8 locally themselves ;-)

Only, ONE DAY I'll fly that 300k in K-8b. All the way... ;)

hannu

Stefan > wrote:
>Mark James Boyd wrote:
>
>> The Bronze badge precision landings and written test and
>> two flights of over two hours are a better prep for X-C than
>> a sole 5 hour duration flight, in my opinion.
>
>Nowhere I said we'd require *only* 5 hours duration!
>
>If you're interested: We require the 5 hours before the first cross
>country. A cross country with an istructor has already been a
>requirement for the license. Then, the first cross country has to be
>prepared, and the preparation presented to an instructor. Preparation
>means preparing the map (drawing circles, indicating outlanding fields),
>estimating a schedule, knowing about the actual weather etc. etc.
>Organizing a retreive crew is also compulsory. During the flight, you
>take a logger with you. After the flight, there will be a debriefing
>with the instructor which includes an analysis of the logger track. This
>first cross country often is 50km silver distance, but need not be. Of
>course, it is flown with our primary solo trainer (happens to be a Junior).

I'm not personally a fan of requiring a 5 hour flight before the
first cross-country. I think this is excessive (in our area).
But of course our thermals are quite regularly spaced and there
are tons of landouts.

I think the Bronze Badge training is quite sufficient before a first X-C.
And two flights of two hours is enough, I'm not sure what more
is gained by a 5 hour flight before ones first 50km attempt.

I also think a first X-C which takes longer than 2 hours or is
further than a bit over 50km is an overtask. I really like a
straight out, downwind to a landing at a pre-scouted airport
as a first X-C task. KISS.

But I could see instances and locations where other tasks or
training might be a better preparation. So if your club's requirements
don't seem overly restrictive, there's probably some
other details you are leaving out (the 5 hours includes a mini-X-C,
and different types of lift, and some navigation, and hydration
and "pee" practice).

>And the ladder goes on: For the better single seaters, a 300 km flight
>is asked for. Double seaters have their own requirements.

LOL. One would think that youd need more skills and hence
better qualifications to take the WORSE single-seaters X-C.

It sounds like an incentive program rather than a safety issue ;P
--

------------+
Mark J. Boyd

>And two flights of two hours is enough, I'm not sure what more
>is gained by a 5 hour flight before ones first 50km attempt.
>
>I also think a first X-C which takes longer than 2 hours or is
>further than a bit over 50km is an overtask. I really like a
>straight out, downwind to a landing at a pre-scouted airport
>as a first X-C task. KISS.

I should also add that personally I flew maybe half-dozen X-Cs
and landed out three times (at planned and scouted airports)
before I flew 5 hours.

I think I even flew a 200km (4:19?) before my first 5 hour flight.

But I had a lot of power experience before that, and I
was really bored by the idea of flying near the
gliderport for more than about a half hour, so maybe
mine is not a typical case.

Hmmm...lemme see how next season goes...
--

------------+
Mark J. Boyd

Mark James Boyd wrote:

> I think the Bronze Badge training is quite sufficient before a first X-C.
> And two flights of two hours is enough, I'm not sure what more
> is gained by a 5 hour flight before ones first 50km attempt.

What's gained by 5 hours compared by 2 times 2 hours? Two things: First,
during 5 hours, the weather conditions will change. Everybody can stay
up between 13:00 and 15:00. 5 hours is a little bit more difficult. And
more educating. Of course, this depends on where you fly. Second, it's
the proof that you can stand it for 5 hours. Thermals get weaker in the
evening. Incidentally, this is the time when you get tired. Both
increase the chance of an outlanding... for which you should be
concentrated.

> I really like a
> straight out, downwind to a landing at a pre-scouted airport
> as a first X-C task. KISS.

KISS for you. Less KISS for the club who has to retrieve 10 members at
the evening. Cross country, as we understand it, is not just flying out
with the wind, but also returnig in the evening.

> LOL. One would think that youd need more skills and hence
> better qualifications to take the WORSE single-seaters X-C.

Of course. This skill is achieved by forcing the new pilots doing their
first cross countries in "worse" gliders.

> It sounds like an incentive program rather than a safety issue ;P

To some extent, yes. We push the new pilots to go cross country. But
then, it's also a financial consideration. As I wrote in an earlier
post: A youngster breaking a Junior in an outlanding is annoying, but
not relally a big problem. The same youngster breaking an LS8 is
somewhat different.

Of course it depends on where you fly and how your club works.

Stefan

Landing on an airfield is not outlanding. What we refer to as outlanding
typically in Europe is 1000ft (if lucky) of unknown pasture.

--
Bert Willing

ASW20 "TW"


"Mark James Boyd" > a écrit dans le message de news:
416dc11d$1@darkstar...
>
> I should also add that personally I flew maybe half-dozen X-Cs
> and landed out three times (at planned and scouted airports)
> before I flew 5 hours.

Bert Willing wrote:

> Landing on an airfield is not outlanding. What we refer to as outlanding
> typically in Europe is 1000ft (if lucky) of unknown pasture.

I just tried to remember when an outlanding field I had to use actually
offered 1000 ft. Can't think of one. But then, this is the reason that
in our club, "each landing is a precision landing", no matter how
generous the runway might be. The precicion we require at our annual
check flight is touching down and coming to a full stop within a
predefined area of 150m.

Stefan

In the Alps, fields listed in the outlanding catalogues are typically 250m /
750ft long. But the last fields I landed on were 300ft (clear approach, but
trees on the far end...) and 500ft (telephone line on entry).

That's why I like the Calif and the ASW20 :-)

--
Bert Willing

ASW20 "TW"


"Stefan" > a écrit dans le message de news:
...
> Bert Willing wrote:
>
>> Landing on an airfield is not outlanding. What we refer to as outlanding
>> typically in Europe is 1000ft (if lucky) of unknown pasture.
>
> I just tried to remember when an outlanding field I had to use actually
> offered 1000 ft. Can't think of one. But then, this is the reason that in
> our club, "each landing is a precision landing", no matter how generous
> the runway might be. The precicion we require at our annual check flight
> is touching down and coming to a full stop within a predefined area of
> 150m.
>
> Stefan
>

Our club has a white marker post at 100 meters from threshhold
the target is to stop before that.
"Stefan" > wrote in message
...
> Bert Willing wrote:
>
>> Landing on an airfield is not outlanding. What we refer to as outlanding
>> typically in Europe is 1000ft (if lucky) of unknown pasture.
>
> I just tried to remember when an outlanding field I had to use actually
> offered 1000 ft. Can't think of one. But then, this is the reason that in
> our club, "each landing is a precision landing", no matter how generous
> the runway might be. The precicion we require at our annual check flight
> is touching down and coming to a full stop within a predefined area of
> 150m.
>
> Stefan
>

goneill wrote:

> Our club has a white marker post at 100 meters from threshhold
> the target is to stop before that.

Yeah. No problem with a Junior (or KA8 or similiar), but try this with
an ASH25 ...

Stefan

At 09:18 14 October 2004, Goneill wrote:
>Our club has a white marker post at 100 meters from
>threshhold
>the target is to stop before that.

How many finish up in the fence?

"goneill" > wrote
> Our club has a white marker post at 100 meters from threshhold
> the target is to stop before that.

I used to belong to a club that had a blue marker about 200 meters
from threshold. If you landed short of it (never mind stopped), you
were